Codex Space Marines Errata | Warhammer 40,000 8th Ed Faction Focus
Spider, Chef and Bone sit down to review the brand new errata on Codex Space Marines and its supplements!
Check out the official document supporting the errata from GW here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/5e1be5c1.pdf
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As a DA player:
Fluff wise, I love it.
Game wise, what did we do to you GW? We only had a couple of months in the light!! Mind you, as a set of players we are definitely used to it and will no doubt plod on until 8.5/9th brings more changes.
There are still ways to change doctrines in faction specific supplements and although doctrines make marines powerful the real problem is Chaptermaster Tactics. The difference between playing a game with that stratagem in play is night and day. It is essentially the dice generator core that all these buffs feed off….
Having given this some additional thought I now feel pretty bummed out.
I do enjoy the doctrines, although I maintain they should be 1-2-3-1-2-3.
But the super tactic is incredibly awkward now for devestator chapters. The enemy will just hide key assets turn one, which will make it to unreliable to build around, which in turn will mean that devestor chapters will soup or go into subchapters.
Marines are not weak, since the core is still strong. But the reasons to actually play a pure IF force just took a massive dive for me.
Ive got some thoughts about this in general. I’ll skip by everything that isn’t the doctrine change because I think all of those are totally fine and good. The doctrine change I feel a little weird about. I think the first thing is that it affects different chapters disproportionately. You sorta end up with a few different categories: The tier where this changes absolutely nothing: White scars, Blood Angel (and BT lol). Both of these armies are strong (BA a little stronger) but this changes absolutely fuck all for them. The tier where you’re a little weaker now, but its… Read more »
To any marines players feeling put out by this, just be thankful that you’re not playing Death Guard right now. One layer of rules, no subfaction stuff, one good relic, no unique strats (they gave cloud of flies to AL, and the explodey one to SM). Oh dear, maybe we’ll get some love in a Psychic Awakening book???
This is very pleasing to me. As I’m not an IH player and never played against them, the biggest plus for me is – as chef said – the confirmation that GW are listening, and that they’re prepared to make changes to the game where needed, outside chapter approved and the FAQs. I think that’s very important for the game and sets an excellent precedent.
The other thing that is very pleasing to me is that Lawrence’s ears map really well on to the eye holes in the skull on the blind behind him.
Time for rematch against Vik and regain honor of Grey Knights!
Thank you all for putting out this reaction video so soon after the announcement. A most welcome course correction that will restore fun to local gaming groups and enable those who always like Space Marines and weren’t gaming the system to feel good about bringing their favorite force to the casual tabletop. I”m very keen to see more faction variety in the top tables moving forward. I think we experienced a skewed perspective on how the PA updates have impacted the non-SM armies given how oppressive the now old SM rules were. It’ll be interesting to see what comes to… Read more »
Ok, you make a compelling argument and I’d have to agree. I play Salamanders and Deathwatch. I was getting really tired of playing Salamanders because I couldn’t lose. So I agree it was getting boring. I’m disappointed because I just finished painting all of my 18 aggressors lol.
I’m not as affected as others with this. I just feel like maybe something like not being able to repeat the same doctrine may have been a better move instead.
Hopefully this means more Space Marines on Battle Reports… Salamanders *cough! *cough!
Is it me or does this suit Blood Angels down to the ground?
Start with a load of repulsors full of intercessors.
Turn 1 shoot all the heavy weapons for devastator doctrinr
Turn 2 the Intercessors get out, some reavers with carbines arrive and take advantage of tactical doctrine
Turn 3 the assault troops/death company land and everyone charges.
Turn 4 the clean up crew arrives with the mop and buckets to wipe up the mess.
When I click on this video and it says 24:46:40 and I prepare myself for the greatest of all Chef rants. A great video and a welcome change to the game! Shame it wasn’t 24 hours long though haha
This is exactly why the monstrous infantry keyword should have been brought back. Saves trouble with other effects such as the banners. Instead of changing individual stratagems to exclude 1 unit.
Wow what a change… It was obvious to everyone that something needed to be done, but it feels like a handful of Chapters were shot in the crossfire as others have put it…. poor Dark Angels especially, right after they got their new doctrine, it really helped them. The inflated win rates speak for themselves, but I find it strange they couldn’t just y’know, rewrite some of the iron hands or fists rules instead of forcing players into doctrines they don’t want. Especially after the Raven Guard nerf was so precise in hitting *specifically* the problem unit, not sure why… Read more »
So after having a think on it all. I do like the changes with the one exception that I think it would have been fair to be allowed in Devastator doctrine on turn 2. That way all the marine get to play with their special doctrine for 2 turns, and it would prevent someone from just waiting out the entire power of your list by just deploying on the back line then having 4 turns where you have a subpar list is some respects. I think this will bring back flyer lists in iron hands and imperial fist so they… Read more »
Lovely chat gents! I wanted to say this change, while it does hurt my ravenwing, does at least make the tactical flexibility WT more viable as it gives you a way to get another turn of devastator doctrine. This might be the only way for a marine army to accomplish this now? Thought that was interesting and worth mentioning. As an aside, I wanted to let you guys know (since you’re all my heroes) that I went 3-0 at a local tournament this past weekend with my necrons rocking my official marked for death TTT tshirt. Love what you guys… Read more »
Space Marines are still going to be incredibly strong. As in insanely strong, but perhaps not straight up broken. We will see, a step in the right direction to be sure.
The only real army caught in the crossfire of this nerf is the Dark Angels… poor Dark Angels.
Too many of the top performing lists with astartes just basically play themselves once deployed. They aren’t the “thinking man’s” armies. They just are set up and delete. I doubt the update will change that but it will hopefully add some variation in the way people list build. I’m also very happy that Centurions aren’t completely busted in the hands of Ravenguard now. I was very disappointed when the centurion lists appeared because it really spoilt the fluffy design of the Ravenguard book which to me is about stealth and precision, not hiding lumbering warsuits with so much firepower its… Read more »
As someone who only plays marines I’m a fan of the change. Like Bone, the more I think about it the more I like it, and it supports the spirit the rule was written in.
Would be great if we could see a few battle reports with the obsidian dragons showing how the new doctrine structure plays out on the table.
Also just to point out for some/I assume all chapters and supplements, I know for example Iron Hands have a Stratgem that can force 1 unit/model to be treated like Devastator doctrine, so it is still possible to activate your super doctrine but its much watered down as a singe model/unit as opposed to army wide which again give you the tactical to push a leviathan into devastor every turn still,….but just 1 and thats a key point
Chef referenced Deliverers= ❤️
As a Crimson Fists player this doesnt really change my list I was running, I personally would have made chapter master 3 CP again as its too cheap in my view
Well, good and bad here for me. I feel now that they instead tilted the doctrines heavily in favor of tactical based doctrines. Most games are over by turn 3 anyway, atleast in casual games. They should just have gone ahead and made it three steps. And then have given us an option to reset the cycle for 2CP.
As always, I wish they gave us proper patch notes and true digital support.
You make some valid, well reasoned points. As an Iron Hands player, allow me to retort: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
Rematch with Vic Lawrence REMATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GK FTW!!!!!!!
Soooo happy they didnt nerf the leviathan but what was breaking it instead. That would’nt have been fair for the other chapters.
Fair enough for giving GW credit for making pretty big changes, but this does still call their game design and play testing into question for me. Sure, the brohammer list took time to develop, but within a week of the marine supplements etc dropping, I was seeing marines sweep the boards clear in casual gaming. I think even a cursory glance at any kind of casual game with marines involved would have given GW an insight into how powerful their new rules were. So, well done GW for fixing the problem poor rules-writing and play testing created is probably as… Read more »
I have absolutely no issue with the changes, what I object to is that they were necessary in the first place! That these changes were required is just proof that GW has all but given up on rules testing before release. There seems to be an attitude of ‘let’s chuck any old rubbish out there and we can amend it if enough people scream.’ Rules writing has become shoddy and haphazard
It’s very exciting to have such an engaged games design team. I too remember the dark days of years without FAQs. Great time for the hobby.
I am glad you TTT bosses touched on Ultramarines/Ultramarines Successors. With the master of strategy warlord trait and the squad doctrines and cycle of war stratagems these changes place them in a interesting place of being most adept at manipulating the doctrines. Looking forward to seeing how the meta evolves.
A little disclaimer, first: when I play marines I use a Primaris Ultramarines successor chapter, and I rock a couple of Impulsors with intercessors w/Thunderhammer… so, what is now required with the doctrines I already did. Lucky me, I guess! That said I find those changes absolutely fantastic and spot on. They don’t destroy the marines, they are still very good, and any dedicated player will still use them as he did before (maybe with some adjustments). They force more variety and mobility, and I for one love this. I suspect the ones that will suffer those changes the most… Read more »
Great video guys thanks for getting it out so quick! I really agree that changes were needed for IH’s, and for RG, centurions next to you turn 1 was grim. These changes should be good for the game. (even though I play RG) Where I am not keen is how it affects IF’s, personally I’m not sure we will ever see them again at a top table and maybe the same for IH’s, although I guess this only matters if you care about competitive. The nerf to devastator doctrine, while something needed to be done as it was oppressive, basically… Read more »
awesome summary! Thanks for the upDATE!
As someone who started played Dark Eldar in 3rd edition i am all too familiar with having to wait for updates so this is pretty cool.
Personally, for my imperial fists list im seriously considering bringing back Lysander and his assault terminator retinue for the shits and giggles in turn 3.
More often than not a castle of any description is boring for everyone involved so im glad constructive (and fluffy!) changes have come about.
I appreciate Bone’s candor. I think that the opinions of influencers in this relatively small hobby are pretty highly regarded, so thank you folks for continuing to bring attention to the issues within the game.
Imperial Fists with two turns of tactical is still great, as tactical doctrine still pairs great with their chapter tactic – intercessors squads with bolt rifles like this – and you can still load up on heavy bolters and get the turn 1 Devastator Doctrine Bonus and then still get your chapter tactic bonus for bolt weapons as the game continues. Hopefully no more 9 units of artillery and instead the Holy Bolter comes back to the forefront!
Much needed. Glad to see gdubs is listening.
This is great to deal with broken stuff and also reflects the spirit of the SM but honestly GW is inconstant then with Superdoctrines, I mean what were they expecting to happen really? Now this becomes silly because you get an army wide bonus available for only one turn it is a bit ridiculous and I dont think this reflects how a former space marine legion would behave on the battle field. So we’ll still see iron hands ans raven guard on the table but adios all the other chapters. Go rework the Superdoctrines
I have been an Iron hands player about a dozen years now, and I have supported all, the changes they have made via the erratas. this is the best one so far. their is one change that frustrated me though and it was the one that increase the stratagem deny the physic power on a 4+. it changed form 1 cp to 2 cp fine. but how come other armies in the game can still do it on a one. same thing with the dark elder strat to cancel your opponents strat, it cost them 4 buy gene stealers can… Read more »
I very much like this changes, its a good beginning, maybe they should change the Chapter Master Stratagem aswell next time, that hurts the game too in my opinion. And i like your reaction to this, because i think your voice is so big GW will hear it 100%. Also i noticed, what BBone said in the beginning, “Marines are Broken”, i think no one of you said that before, you just said similar more “friendly” words like ” this is so good” or something else. I would love to hear that more from you, a more honest opinion on… Read more »
Screw me for thinking I could play marines and not use the broken stuff, and somehow GW WOULDNT still punish me. If anyone needs me, Ill be crying over my marines and day drinking.
GW granting my birthday wish ???
Finally… Interested to see what an impact this will do.
Good for the hobby overall. Caught in the crossfire, it’s actually the Imperial Fists who will suffer the most. It’s a very sad day to be an imperial fist and get knocked down due to iron hands being too strong.
Opponents will now need only to wait for the marines to become less combat effective throughout the game since they have completely gutted the chapters who have a devastator super doctrine and the fists weren’t overpowered in the first place, hence the lack of their own supplement receiving and errata.
These are some really nice changes, been playing different armies as marines were just not fun to always be doing the same thing. Looking forward to bringing my ravenguard out again.
I also don’t think i have ever seen chef this happy haha
Glad they acknowledge that there is a problem.
Overall though, this feels timid and half-baked compared to things like the Ynnari re-balancing.
It was really needed. as a Raven Guard successor player who uses reivers for the infiltration warlord trait it doesn’t affect me, and i am happy because usually i am in tact doctrine turn 2 & 3 and in assault in turn 4 where i am mopping up.
My friends will be much happier to play against me now 🙂
This was really needed…. Even the Marine players in our group don’t like to run them anymore. Because it is just no fun for either side.
Well, unless you are into totally slaughtering and butchering your ‘friends’ I guess.
Fast work! looking forward to Chef’s understated thoughts 🙂