Are Drukhari Broken? | Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus
The Chef May 7, 202154
98
54 Likes
Spider and Chef go through some of the hot talking points regarding the Dark Kin, and discuss the havoc they’re currently causing
00:00 Introduction
05:26 Patrols and CP
09:40 Raiders
27:15 Transport Keywords
30:26 Dark Technomancers
37:36 Succubi and Wyches
45:26 Drahzar and Incubi
52:00 Wrap up and Retrospectives
58:45 Outro and Credits
1:00:45 The main problem in 3 seconds
🦠 Details on how we are keeping safe with our new COVID-19 working methods
🎥 Want even more Tabletop Tactics videos? Check out our website and sign up for On Demand!
🎲 Like to roll in style? Tabletop Tactics Merchandise
🛒 For all your hobby and gaming needs, visit Tabletop Tactics’ sponsors Element Games
🗺 Game Mats provided by gamemat.eu
🎨 For professional miniature painting commissions see Siege Studios
Related View More
Jinx April 25, 202477
66
*SEMI FINAL!* Dark Angels vs Chaos Space Marines | Warhammer 40k League Report
Jinx April 24, 202474
36
Chronicles of Valtor | Chapter 21 | D&D Cast of Players
Jinx April 23, 202451
38
Orks vs Space Marines | Warhammer 40k Battle Report
Jinx April 22, 202486
154
Is 40k too Big? | The Tabletop Tactics Podcast Ep 40
Jinx April 20, 202499
31
*SEMI FINAL!* Necrons vs Grey Knights | Warhammer 40k League Report
The Chef April 19, 202496
24
Dark Elves vs High Elves | Warhammer The Old World Battle Report
The Bard April 18, 202468
32
*NEW CODEX* Orks vs Aeldari | Warhammer 40k Battle Report
The Chef April 17, 202497
25
Chronicles of Valtor | Chapter 20 | D&D Cast of Players
The Bard April 16, 202482
31
60pts for a pack of Succubi? Can’t wait to see how good they make my 60pts chaos cultists when the new codex comes out!
Haven’t seen the codex but couldn’t the Patrol rule just be changed to “Receive +2 Command Points for a patrol detachment that DOES NOT contain your warlord”
If I was going to fix things like lascannon, dark Lance, doomsday cannon, I’d give them the rule Anti-tank (X). Roll a d6 and it does minimum X damage. So anti-tank (3) would roll minimum 3 damage on a 1-3 and then 4, 5 or 6 damage if rolled.
You can then adjust the minimum so a more swingy weapon is Anti-tank (2) to a more reliable weapon being Anti-tank (4)
Maths wise, poison tongue venoms do slightly more damage than black heart or obsidian rose ones, so they do do their poison thing
I’d like to see the book of rust rules be if you are only running Cult of Strife detachments as well. Then there is a real opportunity cost…
I think there is an important upside regarding the new codexes which is that if you look at the proposed changes here (and also on goonhammer, which are pretty similar) its that most focus on points changes. The Dark technomancer and the competitive edge succubus are the main exceptions (drahzar could be fixed by removing a keyword but also through points). And that is I think a very good thing. In 8th there were more instances I think where points were adapted while in fact the rules had to be. If the deldar and death guard codex are the new… Read more »
Drazhar is a striking scorpion anyway, it’s weird that he has the incubi keyword in the first place.
Great video guys, really good insight. It’s cathartic for players who are a little frustrated with the competitive balance to hear that there is some pushback from those on the “inside” of the development cycle. As a player awaiting an unannounced codex there’s some frustration in the relative inequalities, but also some nerves as the Drukhari offering was so powerful, and I wonder if the likes of Craftworlds will keep up. Is this a case of power creep already or are we awaiting the release schedule to normalise things? I appreciate covid is a factor, but having an 18-24 month… Read more »
Just want to echo that I don’t want to see Drukhari nerfed into oblivion and I’ve enjoyed the balanced view given here. For me it’s actually a combination of poor game design for the core game with a codex that leans into the most powerful aspect of game play in 9th: movement. If the core game didn’t revolve entirely around standing on a small number of places on the board, Drukhari wouldn’t be half the problem that they are. Raiders would be powerful but not broken if the game was even a little more three dimensional than the current primary… Read more »
I think 5-10 points on raiders would be fine. If you start adding costs to troops I really agree with Lawrence that it’s just punishing non issues. For reference I have a list with no wracks and three raiders. If I raise the points of HQs by 15, 10 on draz etc. and raiders by 10 I have to cut 60 points from the list. If I add troops to that we go all the way up to 85 points on a list that doesn’t exist in the tournament scene. An idea to fix dark techno is to make it… Read more »
The most imporant question I have….
….what red did you use to paint those raiders?
(also, for a new Drukhari player, this video was fantastic)
I like these non-hysterical takes. If a 70% win rate is indefensible, and it is, then it follows 30% would be as well. Fix the really suspect interactions, you guys listed all of the ones I’m aware of, hand out a few small price increases, and see where things end up. Even if it needs more, well, it took a few tries to get Iron Hands under control too. But it needs active intervention. Two things make me flinch when I hear “wait for the meta to adapt.” Chef happened to mention both of them in some fashion, I’d like… Read more »
It seems to me GW has a very hard time balanceing vehicles currently. It’s like noone’s got the spreadsheet out, priceing a T6, 4+/5++ at 8,5 points per wound is madness, let alone with fly, combat ability and open topped. There’s no excuse for it. This is, as always, further enhanced by the fact that the game is not holistically balanced and released peicemeal feeding into this vicious FOTM-meta with overnerfs rolling in like a late tide every six months. See a lot of Thunderfire cannons around? Overall I agree with a lot of your points, but I think the… Read more »
I agree with a lot of this. I’ve played a couple games against Drukhari and think this would reduce the models on the table to make them less oppressive and give you a realistic chance of actually dealing with some of the pure killing power. Something that wasn’t mentioned and I’d like your opinion on whether it’s too much or not is the succubus with the 2 mortal wounds on 6 to hit but 10 attacks and reroll hits and fight first. Essentially she kills anything she touches (HQ wise) do you think it should be 6 on the wound… Read more »
Fun discussion. Interesting to hear your take on it. I don’t love the gulf between the armies that have a codex and those that don’t. I wish 9th had have started like 8th, with a index for everything. I play GSC and 9th is hurting! – and when I see the gap just keeps getting bigger between my guys and each new army that gets a codex. (Side note: would love to see some GSC on the channel again soon – would be interested to hear how/if you make them work)! Also… I always thought the reason that some squads… Read more »
Thanks for the exceptional overview! Great content as per usual. I’m fresh into 40K, with Drukhari as my first army, and I definetly identify a lot with what you said about a common reaction to people who play the current BBEG in the meta. Complaining is fun, indeed there are entire cultures built around that reality, but the sheer amount of salt that the current cutting edge book generates within wargaming communitys is jawdropping. It achives little else other than dividing the community, lessening peoples enjoyment of the hobby and just making the world into a worse place in general.… Read more »
Love the intro music. Reminds me of something out of The Lost Boys
Not really a dig at the Drukhari, but what the hell Is up with the new campaign books? Rust and whatever the next Is. We are getting new rules before everyone has codices, and yet again more books to carry around. 40k Is a just exhausting me more than anything else right now, and to be honest Its killed my entire enjoyment of playing the game.
Don’t worry Drukhari players! Nerfs only come into effect about 2 days before I’m ready to use the army for the first time, and my Drukhari are nowhere near ready yet! 😂
And yeah, and Drazhar is silly.
He easily out-blenders characters like Celestine or even the Yncarne, which is well north of 200 points.
Inevitable comparison to Jain Zar and all that.
Great video as always, but you’re so right about the current situation killing enthusiasm for the new codex. I’ve played Drukhari since 5th, I’ve had all of one game with the new codex and I only play socially – not even in the local shop, let alone in a tournament – and now I don’t want to use them in our post-lockdown crusade because people will assume I’m That Guy.
At least I have a Deathwatch army as well. They’re considered sufficiently bad to get a pass.
Great review. I think (as a long time Drukhari fan) a few things would go a long way to toning it all down a bit, which I think match up with your comments. Points increase on Raiders, I think 10 points total is enough, so 95 with a DL, most people put Trophies and/or PGL on them anyway to they’ll be 100 points most of the time. Limit Wracks to 1 Liquifier Gun in 5, still keeps DT strong but effectively halves the output. Make Competative Edge not interact with the Razorflail wording. Wyches up to 12 points, Drazhar 150,… Read more »
Watches while painting up the seventh raider…. “yeah they’re probably right”.
There are a lot of dumb rules interaction which I think need cleaning up but I want to see the new sisters and admech books that are coming because if there are two books that are in a prime position to be absolute nonsense its those ones. Have a feeling it will be an edition where everyone has all the toys they could want
I like Chef with a beard. That is all.
There was some “datasheet-sticker-shock” on Mortarion and Deathwing Terminators and some such. But they didn’t do the big tournament wins. The overperforming “somewhat too good” armies for the past 6 months have consistently been Harlequins and Sisters, trading fast, punchy T3 units that don’t “waste points” for redundant durability out of (flying) transports, supported by 36″ Str. 8 high damage Melta or super-fast jetbikes, as well as super-killy T3 characters like the beneficence canoness or the Twilight Fang Troupemaster. Drukhari do that playstyle, expect better with even cheaper units. But that style of play was a problem in the current… Read more »
I think this review is so razorsharp.
I agree with everything just guys just said.
Making these changes would make them fun to play and play against without nerfing them too hard…
The 2 CP bonus just feels against the spirit of things. Looking at the book it just feels like a small turn up on points is needed than a re-write, which is what I personally prefer to just having bad rules. Close the gaps of weird rulings and up the points a smidge and the army will be where it needs to be.
Great video, love your thoughts on the matter. I hardly have much to say since I started the game with 8th edition and I have only had one game in which to fight my Raptors against a Drukari list, which did have 5 Raiders, a Venom and Drahzar and what seems like a typical Drukari mix. It was a fun game against a fun opponent but I never felt I had a fair shot of winning either. My only morale victory was killing all the boats and Drahzar! (Hate that guy!) Anyways, my complaint about the Drukari is practically everything… Read more »
I love the raider aesthetic and would run them despite venoms being far superior in 8th. Would have been thrilled for them just to get an invulnerable save so I could run them more competitively in 9th.
Very good analisys and reasonable changes, at least to start with. I’m just worried by how slow and impredictable is GW with the FAQs since 9th dropped. I also think that what some people say about the fact that things will naturally balance out when AdMech and Sisters will be released it’s a terrible idea and hopefully wrong, since this would mean that either the power creep will make the first codices unplayable or that some armies will be hard counters against some specific factions, and this is not a good game design: I should have a fair match against… Read more »
One of the main problems is that it’s incredibly difficult to sift through the chaff of kneejerk feedback to get to things that are actually constructive and reasonable. Every time there’s a new codex there’s this sort of community discussion (whining?) and it almost becomes like the boy who cried wolf and it makes for quite a toxic environment amongst certain sections of the playerbase. Of course, I don’t think GW do themselves any favors here either by trickling out codexes for new editions over years which prolongs power imbalances etc (setting aside how difficult it might be to release… Read more »
A significant factor in Drazhar showing up everywhere is that there’s no opportunity cost to taking him. The Drukhari lineup is so sorely lacking in viable, interesting HQ options that not taking a second Archon, or a third Succubus, simply isn’t a problem.
Compare it to say, a Marine army where there’s three to five different datasheets you want in a detachment in the HQ slot depending on your army composition because they all bring unique and interesting abilities to the table.
A sensible response to a situation which I think has been caused by a few key issues and exacerbated by somewhat of a perfect storm in the shape of the latest tournemant results. It will all come out in the wash until then just enjoy the game. I know I will, I’m taking my new shiny tantalus out for its first raid tomorrow …….. Along side 70 liquifier guns of course haha
Agreed with everything here, especially the outcries about DA and DG, people cried that those were busted and overpowered but besides a couple wins and showings they’ve not performed to the hype.. drukhari on the other hand have with a 70% winrate, multiple tournament wins and placings. I would personally start with adjusting points on the raider and liquifiers and see how it goes from there before dropping the hammer full send.
There’s only 1 way for Drukhari to gain CP outside of the triple-patrol, and that’s locked to Black Heart.
The problem with locking sub-faction keywords is that it makes it a nightmare for non-matched play players to actually collect and play their army.
Hey guys, first off thanks for a very level-headed approach to this heated debate (not that I expected anything less from you). Before I go into any more detail I want to say that I started Drukhari in 8th and it has been more or less my only 40k army since, so everything I say is obviously not from a neutral outsider perspective or anything like that. In my opinion the competetive edge/reazorflail succubus should not be a thing at all and DT should not interact with liquifiers. With the obvious stuff out of the way let’s get to the… Read more »
What could work with the liquifier is to make it heavy, at least then it won’t be a T1 alpha strike. Maybe combined with making it one per wrack squad.
I think it’s mostly a player problem. In tournament gaming there will be a evolution with more codex coming in the following month. And I dont know if there is much complaining in this sector. And in private gaming it is in your own hands. We have a large gaming group with nearly every army and we almost always have funny and exciting games even if we are playing hardcore. Why? Because we like to play with our friends not against them. We want to have a good time with friends and not destroying them. If you want to play… Read more »
Raiders: maybe actually bring some autocannons now?
I’m surprised I haven’t seen anyone talking about this, but Agents of Vect is also a problem. Don’t get me wrong, it definetly needed to change from what it was. My problem with it currently is that it’s a 0 CP stratagem without an in-game interaction to trigger it. For example (I’m a Custodes player), Custodes have exactly one 0 CP strat. It requires me to kill an enemy character, at which point the opponent’s next strat costs an extra CP. Agents of Vect currently is far and away superior because you as a Drukhari player dont actually need to… Read more »
Lawrence should take the Wolves from Bbone (tear forms in eye) when he leaves. They are good but outside of some of the obvious primaris units (looking at you Eradicators). They do not have auto includes that write the list for you (stares longingly at other Chapters’ apothecaries). As for Drukhari, some minor tweaks and letting the meta catch up will help. My brother plays them and they are rough but I feel some minor point hikes will help.
I feel I’m in the minority here where I’d like to see more of the competitive community attempt to adapt to the Drukhari meta instead of just saying ‘change this, change that oh and make all this stuff more expensive too’ but at the same time the cost of the Raider in comparison to the Venom (wasn’t aware the current cost is that close as I don’t have the book, collect or play Drukhari) is a massively valid point and probably the change (along with removing Drazhar being affected by his own aura too) I feel the faction needs. That… Read more »
I think you both have discussed some interesting points that are 100% accurate, and I say this also as a competitive Drukhari player… That being said, I’d love to heard the thoughts from either of you on the state of the Covens, aside from Dark Technomancers… After reviewing and playing with the codex, I feel that covens (again, aside from Dark Technomancers), just don’t shine in the codex the way that anything Kabal or Wych Cult does… Would you agree, or am I being too critical here?
The one you missed too is the weird interaction of bringing any of the characters in a detachment that doesn’t match their sufaction, i.e. succubus running a coven or kabal detachment, because it is better than a homunculus or Archon. That was the issue with Brad Chester’s list that won motor city mayhem. That and his razor’s edge succubus wasn’t his warlord, Drazhar was, which was a terrible TO ruling. Again that links to the book of rust rules and a need for an FaQ to that book. Honestly I agree on the not cranking the points as much, except… Read more »
i was so inspired by lawrence playing drukhari vs ad mech game against stig that i bought a drukhari army in febuary before the codex came out now it has i agree with chef on the raider 5 pts base plus 5pts for dark lance .then i agree with lawrence on drahzar 160pts even at 180 i would take himthat covers my army has ive gone kabalite army.The wracks should be only in raiders from their own detachment /coven and should have the same rules as kabalite warriors ,the succubus is undercosted and i think the book of rust is… Read more »
Yeah agree about the Raiders with the Dark lances for the points. The Plague burst Crawler with two Entropy cannons almost the same gun,more wounds higher toughness another gun as well etc but its a heavy choice and cost twice as much.The game spider had with the Drukhari vs B Bones Death guard his vehicles got blown away quickly by six Raiders with Dark lances for about a quarter of points for the Drukhari 2000pt list. What spider said about 100pts each for them.Maybe change that inv to a 6+ as well.
There are some things that are broken. Wracks with dark technomancers, and some cult of strife stuff. Other than that there’s some point changes. Wyches, raiders and drazhar….
great video, just a thought. it would be cool if you guys talked about the new Warhammer fest reveals and how it might impact the game 🙂
One of the best, clearest, sensiblest and down to earth responses I’ve seen for Drukhari. Couldn’t agree more. Well done again as always bosses.
Nobody should ever feel guilty for playing the faction they love…. now I’m going to build some Ad Mech and when this reaction happens to them in a months time, I will smile and enjoy the taste of all your salty tears!! Mwahahaha
Of course they arent broken!, only Marines are allowed to be broken remember. In all seriousness people need to stop getting all bent out of shape by these codexes, we know there is an inevitable power creep, its very hard to avoid in such a dense game. Instead of crying about it, find ways to win against the odds, you will lose more but when you win itll be so much more satisfing. My only army is DA and i started when marines were average at best, with DA and SW at the bottom of the chapters. I still won… Read more »